Engine Breaking!

[Glovik]

So I've only been riding 2 years now(with about 20k mi under my belt on different bikes) but one thing I've always done is engine braking. I do most of my driving zipping around town, so staying in gear while slowing down has always made sense to avoid hairy situations. They didn't touch on engine braking as much as I would have liked looking back at my MSF course, but reading online and talking to other rider generally put me on the path of engine braking freely. It even says in the fz8 manual it's only being properly lubed while the engine is engaged.

Either way, the other day I was at my local dealership looking at gloves next to an older rider. We struck up convo, and somehow down the road he made a joke poking fun at people who would actually use their engine as a break. I sorta played along but also asked why that was a big deal. He laughed and said "brakes are for braking, engines are for going".

After getting home (gloveless) I looked it up a found other people with the same train of thought. Coming to a stop, they hold in the clutch and brake with brakes and simply click through the gears appropriately lined up to thei speed to still be able to pull away.

Whats your take on this subject? I like the sound of my engine too much to not let it roar at all times.

Also let me clarify, I still use my brakes while stopping and such, it's not like I'm going 40mph and throw it in first and pray not to have to brake lol. Also sorry for the wall of text I'm just realizing I made to ask a simple question .

 

[lothodon]

first off, it's BRAKE not break, but i use the engine quite a lot as well, always have. i seem to have too heavy a BRAKING (hehe) hand and nearly every bike i've ever owned i've managed to warp the brake disks so i resort to using the engine more and more.

 

[wa2txcory]

Engine braking

I am sure you are going to get a lot of varying responses on this one. My personal opinion and what I was taught is that you dont engine brake (car or bike). Brakes are cheaper than an engine and with a bike if you accidentally go down a gear or two too much it can cause the back to come out (thats why they make slipper cluthes). I also dont ride on the cluth as some do. Its easier, in my opinion, especially in fast corners, to brake before you arrive and just get the braking done with the brake so you are not worrying about slowly letting out the clutch. JUst brake to speed and slowly get on the throttle as you go through the corner. As for stops, I do the same thing-brake, slight gas, clutch, down shift, brake, slight gas, clutch down shift, etc. Just my opinion.

 

[Lee_533]

I always engine brake even coming into corners. It wont hurt anything if you know what your doing. The only time I use the brakes is to stop completely or if I'm coming into a corner too hot.

 

[calscrazy]

+1 to lothodon and lee. in the owners manual for my ducs it said TO ENGINE BRAKE. not sure what the fz8 and r6 say.

did you ask the old guy if he was just afraid it would get away from him? if so he might need to get off whatever he is on and trade to 250!

 

[impostor1981]

Brakes and engine braking with gears reduction from me. Keeps the rear wheel traction and correct balance of the bike if you have to accelerate you do not need to worry about disengaging the clutch and if you drop the clutch down the bike loses its stability, that is something you do not want for sure when you approach the corner it can mess your line up or make you to make an unnecessary corrections to the entry or mid corner line

 

[wa2txcory]

Twist of the wrist II

For those who havent read this I just found it on pdf for free. Unfortunately, I bought it a couple months ago and the DVD as a refresher and now just found it for free. Oh well. Take it as you will and gain whatever you can. A few good points-takes about engine braking, throttle control, etc.

 

[Vapordan]

Arguably, the better riders are the ones who race bikes for a living; and the ones who test bikes for a living. I've never seen them riding the clutch into a corner. I' ve never heard them slipping the clutch either. They always pump the throttle between shifts as well. Makes sense to understand the advantages in their techniques. After all, they race against the clock!

 

[highoctane]

I have allways downshifted all of my vehicles, letting the engine help slow you down. less brake wear. never heard of it damaging/wearing out your engine.

 

[Hoover]

Engine braking is a crutial part of driving/riding.
One of the reasons it is not taught in drivers ed in the US is because all cars are sissy autos. Learn to drive in Europe where most cars have proper transmissions, you will be taught to downshift.
Ask yourself this, when you are driving alongside a semi that is slowing for traffic signals, do you hear silence as he puts the clutch in and relies on his brakes to stop 80,000 lbs? or do you hear him downshifting?

The same applies to cycles. Correct matching of engine RPMs and gear selection will result in smooth, fast deceleration, meaning less braking effort required and more controlled riding.

You should NEVER, EVER, NEVER, oh yes, EVER be in neutral whilst your vehicle is moving..PERIOD. You are losing one of the 4 methods of controlling your vehicle.

This is not just my opinion, it is factual information and anyone who tells you otherwise is full of shit..perhaps the last part is my opinion

 

[lyric911]

Engine braking is a crutial part of driving/riding.
One of the reasons it is not taught in drivers ed in the US is because all cars are sissy autos. Learn to drive in Europe where most cars have proper transmissions, you will be taught to downshift.
Ask yourself this, when you are driving alongside a semi that is slowing for traffic signals, do you hear silence as he puts the clutch in and relies on his brakes to stop 80,000 lbs? or do you hear him downshifting?

The same applies to cycles. Correct matching of engine RPMs and gear selection will result in smooth, fast deceleration, meaning less braking effort required and more controlled riding.

You should NEVER, EVER, NEVER, oh yes, EVER be in neutral whilst your vehicle is moving..PERIOD. You are losing one of the 4 methods of controlling your vehicle.

This is not just my opinion, it is factual information and anyone who tells you otherwise is full of shit..perhaps the last part is my opinion

I fully agree. Especially on a motorcycle where acceleration is your primary escape tactic. The few tenths of a second to get in gear/off the clutch could mean the difference between life and death.

 

[lyric911]

I forgot, I have a story along those lines.

About a month ago I was riding on a local twisty country road, and I got stuck behind a short line of slow moving cars. I was the 3rd vehicle in the line. The first car was going very slow. The second car was driving erratically. Crossing double yellow. Swerving. Just, awful and aggressive driving. Eventually we get to a straight enough part of the the road that car 2 is able to pass car 1. Naturally, this was also plenty of space for me to get around car 1, so I did. When I was past car 1, I had plenty of space to go ahead and buzz by car 2 as well, so I twist a little more and scoot on past. The driver of car 2 did not like this apparently and violently swerved back in to the left lane, directly at me. As quickly as I could react I swerved left to the edge or road white line and opened the throttle fully (I was at maybe 60% throttle already) and rocketed away.

Granted, that's not a situation where I'd have ever been in neutral or clutched in in the first place, but it's a good example of throttle being the best escape mechanism.

 

[FZER]

Couldn't say it better myself the engine is your friend. I engine brake a lot really. I do wish we had a slipper clutch though. I know this is terrible for everything drivetrain wize, but sometimes I'll lock up the rear......

One important thing to know about engine breaking. Our bikes can out brake most if not all cars, sometimes you'll be able to keep from rear ending someone, but the person behind you might not react fast enough and rearend you. So there's another case were you would want to be in gear. However, I always tap the brakes several times when engine braking to tell all the idiots behind me that hey I'm slowing down and please don't run me over and kill me. That rear brake running and brake light is one of your best friends you'll ever have.

 

[Lee_533]

Couldn't say it better myself the engine is your friend. I engine brake a lot really. I do wish we had a slipper clutch though. I know this is terrible for everything drivetrain wize, but sometimes I'll lock up the rear......

One important thing to know about engine breaking. Our bikes can out brake most if not all cars, sometimes you'll be able to keep from rear ending someone, but the person behind you might not react fast enough and rearend you. So there's another case were you would want to be in gear. However, I always tap the brakes several times when engine braking to tell all the idiots behind me that hey I'm slowing down and please don't run me over and kill me. That rear brake running and brake light is one of your best friends you'll ever have.

I too tap the brakes for the car behind me until they come to a complete stop. And I have a motodynamic tail light so when I touch the brakes, the light flashes 3 or 4 times before hitting solid red. Not to mention I always stop on the right or left of the car in front of me and leave the bike in gear. That way if I see in my mirrors that the car behind me isn't stopping, I can just throttle around the car in front of me and get out of the way.

 

[Wieb27]

Rev match downshifting.....

 

[Vapordan]

Rev match downshifting.....

This is really hard especially in aggressive stops, takes a lot of practice to keep from back-end lockup but the difference is night and day imo because the bike is slowing at its maximum rate just short of lockup. I've been reading about other bikes like the bmw that automatically squeeze the back-end when the front brake is applied - neat!

 

[Fazer401]

Neutral is for never

There is a well established school of thought that says "brakes are cheaper than engines" so don't engine brake. If that logic applies to anything, and I personally call BS, it would apply to a car slowing in a straight line,like on the freeway or approaching a light,or coasting downhill to save gas. BUT, that logic rests on the assumption that downshifting is somehow "bad", when that's obvious nonsense. Is it mechanically "tougher" on a motor than neutral ? Geez, maybe marginally, but still well within normal operating conditions...obviously. Thats like saying you shouldnt walk on concrete cuz itll wear out your shoes. Theres nothing smoother than a well-executed downshift at proper revs and ABSOLUTELY there's nothing safer. Engine brake, clutch in, blip the throttle to get revs up, downshift and eeeeease it out. If you spin your rear, you got over aggressive, revs were too high for the gear,you dumped the clutch, etc.. A slipper clutch is more a fail-safe than a necessity, it's one less thing for a rider to worry about, you can't spin it so you needn't try not to. Like the BMW linked brakes (my gf's Elite has em too) ,it makes up for rider error, MANY riders have a real problem using both brakes well, idk why, so it does it for you. A biker shouldn't spend much if any time in neutral on the road, the only time I can think of is to shake out your cramping hand at a red light. NEVER in a turn, my god, that wheel spinning under load = traction, period. Sometimes when you're losing a turn the thing to do is give it MORE gas not less...this is why a good rider takes a turn high up in the rev range- First,that's where you get the most grip, and second, you can let off if the turn gets tighter but still have plenty of revs. Technically, you shouldnt be shifting down or up while turning, you downshift coming into it and pick a low enough gear to go ALL THE WAY through the turn. (lower gear,higher revs, and looking ALL the way to the end of your turn instead of looking down 3 feet in front of you will clean up your turning 1000%) When you downshift in a turn, youre putting the bike in neutral to make the change, and youve lost youre traction for that second. How about coasting and then finding the right gear to match your slower speed on a bike? ever try to put a bike in second from neutral while it's moving? She no like! Bikes don't coast ever, relevant lubrication issues aside its just not done, ever. You are not in control of a coasting bike and you can't get control fast enough in a jam. You should've taken one of the gloves you were looking at and slapped his face with it and then challenged him to a motorcycle joust. That's what I would've done.

 

[FZER]

What did the five fingers say to the face?

 

[Vapordan]

Engine braking is a crutial part of driving/riding.
One of the reasons it is not taught in drivers ed in the US is because all cars are sissy autos. Learn to drive in Europe where most cars have proper transmissions, you will be taught to downshift.
Ask yourself this, when you are driving alongside a semi that is slowing for traffic signals, do you hear silence as he puts the clutch in and relies on his brakes to stop 80,000 lbs? or do you hear him downshifting?

The same applies to cycles. Correct matching of engine RPMs and gear selection will result in smooth, fast deceleration, meaning less braking effort required and more controlled riding.

You should NEVER, EVER, NEVER, oh yes, EVER be in neutral whilst your vehicle is moving..PERIOD. You are losing one of the 4 methods of controlling your vehicle.

This is not just my opinion, it is factual information and anyone who tells you otherwise is full of shit..perhaps the last part is my opinion

There are signs in some toronto municipalities clearing stating "Avoid Engine Braking If possible". What's the deal here?

 

[FZER]

There are signs in some toronto municipalities clearing stating "Avoid Engine Braking If possible". What's the deal here?

Most likely referring to tractor trailers. Town south of me has signs for no jake brakes.