compensation
New member
I am thinking of leaving my bike alone unless i see some good numbers. But was wondering what did you add or have done and what gains did you get.
With your add ons, how much power are you making?
- Thread starter compensation
- Start date
V
Vapordan
Guest
Here's my redundant comment
Add-ons cannot possibly 'make power'; Useful power is produced in the combustion chamber, no usable power is produced any where else for closed systems. The bike makes 106 at the crank and 96ish at the wheel based on specs (Max. Power: 78.1KW(106.2PS)/10000r/min Source). That's your upper (but not necessarily lower) bound.
Slip-ons typically free up about 5% on a good day. A full exhaust will free up some more. Mapping/tuning/sprockets and the usual onslaught of performance mods must usually respect the upper bound max power of 106.
NOTE: In some cases, breaching the upper bound power limit is theoretically possible without violating the laws that govern energy transfer because the engine may be compromised for emissions over performance; the engine may not be producing all the power it could be producing.
Last edited by a moderator:
lyric911
New member
Here's my redundant comment
The bike makes 106 at the crank and 96ish at the wheel based on specs (Max. Power: 78.1KW(106.2PS)/10000r/min Source). That's your upper (but not necessarily lower) bound.
Slip-ons typically free up about 5% on a good day. A full exhaust will free up some more. Mapping/tuning/sprockets and the usual onslaught of performance mods must usually respect the upper bound max power of 106.
NOTE: In some cases, breaching the upper bound power limit is theoretically possible without violating the laws that govern energy transfer because the engine may be compromised for emissions over performance; the engine may not be producing all the power it could be producing.
Power is produced in the combustion chamber. Adding air or abetting the escape of exhaust can and will make more power. A combustion chamber is not a closed system.
MotoRick
Motorcycle Fanatic
I'm sure it would also be possible to turbo charge or use nitrous to send the horsepower through the roof. It would probably grenade the engine eventually, but you get my drift.
compensation
New member
Well i already have a bike with nitrous so i dont think i want to do that to this one. I looked at a leo vince track pack with headers, muffler, tuner, and i think something else too. But they sent me a dyno slip that shows the combo with upgraded air filter makes only 4 more hp. I dont expect to turn it into a race bike, I just want a little more power. But for only 4hp i will leave it alone. Otherwise i could go get a 12' zx10. Just reaching out for your experience. Keep em coming.
Just reaching out for your experience. Keep em coming.Well i already have a bike with nitrous so i dont think i want to do that to this one. I looked at a leo vince track pack with headers, muffler, tuner, and i think something else too. But they sent me a dyno slip that shows the combo with upgraded air filter makes only 4 more hp. I dont expect to turn it into a race bike, I just want a little more power. But for only 4hp i will leave it alone. Otherwise i could go get a 12' zx10.
Not the 12 ZX10, get the BMW S1000RR, comes with heated grips
Mrpacis
New member
Well i already have a bike with nitrous so i dont think i want to do that to this one. I looked at a leo vince track pack with headers, muffler, tuner, and i think something else too. But they sent me a dyno slip that shows the combo with upgraded air filter makes only 4 more hp. I dont expect to turn it into a race bike, I just want a little more power. But for only 4hp i will leave it alone. Otherwise i could go get a 12' zx10.
Oh man have you Seen the 2013 zx10r. Beastly!!
V
Vapordan
Guest
No, it does not. If by some miracle it did, it is not usable power because it doesn't help to turn the crank shaft. Abetting exhaust gas reduces the back pressure in the combustion chamber making it easier for exhaust gas to escape. No power is produced by that. However, it does allow the engine to produce power more efficiently, that's probably what you are referring to.
A closed system has no external influence that adds to the power creation. If it is an open system as you say, what is the source of the extra power and where is its location?
Last edited by a moderator:
lyric911
New member
One example of source of extra power: More oxygen from a freer flowing intake. Optimized intakes and exhausts absolutely do make more power. You will not win this discussion with anyone that halfway knows what they are talking about.
W
WARPTH
Guest
a 4 horse power increase on a bike that weighs with rider 300kg is equivalent to approx 20hp gain in a car. 1 hp makes a big difference on bikes.
4 hp doesnt seem like much of a gain for a full system and tune? akrapovic claim 3.6hp gain just from a slip on? but if it ironed out that flat spot at 5k and gave you an additional 10hp under 6000 its worth every penny in my opinion.
4 hp doesnt seem like much of a gain for a full system and tune? akrapovic claim 3.6hp gain just from a slip on? but if it ironed out that flat spot at 5k and gave you an additional 10hp under 6000 its worth every penny in my opinion.
yes, but you need the free flow exhaust to match. Once you get intake air flowing and exhaust you need to add more fuel. Thats where a fuel management system has to be added. Once you do air and exhaust you will be running a lean mixture. Slipons do not really increase HP. They will smooth out some dead spots, increase the exhaust sound and not really do much to the mixture. I read an article years ago and it stated that you still have the same amount of fuel and air entering the engine and you have the same amount of exhuast gasses exiting with less restriction. Most modern FI systems will compensate for this, plus you still have the catalytic convertor in line. Now adding an aftermarket air filter that is free flowing and a slip-on you will start getting into the lean mixture. Modding the airbox will add more air and lean out the mixture even more. This is where you need fuel management.
V
Vapordan
Guest
Harrywz hit the nail on the head. What you are describing is back pressure. As I pointed out, back pressure does not create more energy, that would violate the principles of energy transfer. These laws govern the combustion engine and have never been shown to be violated. What you consider to be 'creating more power' is simply an engine that is making power more efficiently or isn't compromised for emissions with a reduced exhaust. That's a huge difference.
You misunderstand me. I'm not interested in winning arguments neither do these types of people scare me (gear heads with anecdotes and zero theory). I'm interested in technical and theoretical correctness and learning as I go along. I'm more interested in turning a page than turning a spanner. I participate passionately in a discussion as long as there is something to be learned. Otherwise, I sit and watch from the side. We're almost to that point.
compensation
New member
Wow, i will have to read this a few times to process it fully. I am a carb guy and am learning the injection principles. Its nice to have you guys teach it to me.
So I cant count the airbox/filter, exhaust, and jet kits i have put in. But with this injection, doing the same except I use power commander instead of dyno jet and i will get roughly the same results. The part i really dont understand is remaping and how to get the bike running tip top. Because a carbureted bike runs best stock, and injection bikes seem like they take it and want more. I just dont want to ruin a bike i plan on keeping till it dies.
Also, apples to apples the best tuned up fz8 you have seen compared to a stock one. Where do you see the gains in performance. I dont mind putting all the coolest parts on but there is that point where you think "hell, I could have bought a faster and better bike with the money i spent on getting 10 more hp". I done that with my brute force 650. Paid 6k new and have 10k in it. I just wonder if its worth it.
So I cant count the airbox/filter, exhaust, and jet kits i have put in. But with this injection, doing the same except I use power commander instead of dyno jet and i will get roughly the same results. The part i really dont understand is remaping and how to get the bike running tip top. Because a carbureted bike runs best stock, and injection bikes seem like they take it and want more. I just dont want to ruin a bike i plan on keeping till it dies.
Also, apples to apples the best tuned up fz8 you have seen compared to a stock one. Where do you see the gains in performance. I dont mind putting all the coolest parts on but there is that point where you think "hell, I could have bought a faster and better bike with the money i spent on getting 10 more hp". I done that with my brute force 650. Paid 6k new and have 10k in it. I just wonder if its worth it.
Mrpacis
New member
What do u mean by fuel management. Ecause I got a k&n air filter and did the airbox mod. I notice lose of low end torque. I think I need that fuel management you are talking about
compensation
New member
He is talking about something like a power commander to open the injectors up and give more fuel to make the mixture rich'n up. Now that you have more air, you need a little more gas.
Ok so from what i read, lyric and vapor are both right. Lyric is answering my hp gain with add ons, because the end result is more power. Vapor is more on the efficiency side saying the engine is more capable then its stock settings by giving more fuel and air, you pull out the restricted power. So your basically saying the same stuff in different ways. Keep the post rollin! Thanks!
Ok so from what i read, lyric and vapor are both right. Lyric is answering my hp gain with add ons, because the end result is more power. Vapor is more on the efficiency side saying the engine is more capable then its stock settings by giving more fuel and air, you pull out the restricted power. So your basically saying the same stuff in different ways. Keep the post rollin! Thanks!
You have the concept. Just think of the injectors as carbs. The only difference is that instead of replacing jets you are changing the amount of gas/air mixture that they are spraying into the engine using a 3rd party fuel management system, best one known being Power Commander. When you are changing the "mapping" you are using a computer via a USB cable and changing the fuel mixture and writing this to the fuel management system.
The best way to find the proper map is to have the bike on a dyno and a fuel analyzer probe in the exhaust.
As well, there are pre made maps for certain configurations ie: FZ8 with
full Akrapovik system and K&N filter. If your bike meets this criteria, you can use this map but its still not 100% due to climate and location of where you are running the bike. There are all kinds of maps available depending on how long a bike has been Brothers makes the juice box and have maps for the 2 bros pipes. Bazzaz is another company that makes these with addons such as traction control and speed shifting. Skys the limit on what you can spend but you are still limited to how far you can push your FZ8 engine before she blows. You would probably spend money better on good tires and beefing up the suspension.
Fuel managment is Powercommander, Juicebox piggyback units to help control the injectors. They supplement the stock ECU by intercepting the injector commands and change the fuel mixture depending on the mods you have in the fuel system like an unrestricted air box, full exhaust system etc.
The stock ECU is hard coded for stock air box, stock exhaust and will supply the proper air/fuel mixture for that configuration. Once you start playing with exhaust and air filter, air box, the ECU cannot compensate for the changes. Once you introduce more air thru air filter, air box you will start to run a lean mixture. This is bad as this can melt pistons, put holes in the top of pistons.
So we must add more gas to the mixture.
compensation
New member
Haha. So when i put the jet kits in and retune by moving the clip on the needle and adjusting the mixture screws, its the same concept but you use a computer instead. The jet kits are usually too lean for Indiana. So i richen them up do to elevation, average temp, and the other regional variables. Now i have to work on it with a computer and not get my hands dirty. Now the sense of accomplishment isn't there, or the burning sensation from gas spilling on your cut fingers. LOL
You got it man !
Its actually a bit easier now. You don't have to remove the carbs to reset if you are not happy with results. Just hookup the laptop and load a different map. The biggest problem is that FI is not as linear as carbs. A good carb man can tune them so well that you have no lag whatsoever. My advice to tuners out there is to get a liter sportbike that is already pushing form 175 - 200hp if you need that much. Our bikes are just 96hp, with all the mods you might get 110hp. As well you can go the FZ1 route, 150hp.