Flash tune vs. guhls

NoNine4me

New member
Not true, ignition timing can be adjusted with the ignition module add on and engine braking can be lessened buy adding more fuel in parts of the map. The reason the engine brakes so hard is because the ECU really cuts back the fuel during de-acceleration if you add a bit of fuel in the de-accel part of the map the engine braking is lessened. So really the only thing the flash can do that the PCV can't is the rate the secondary flies open and adjusting/removing the rev limiter which is useless anyway. Yes its expensive but its for those of us who like to tinker ourselves and learn how to tune on our own. The PCV/JBP ect is the answer for some and the reflash is good for others depending on their situation. If I had know about flash tune before I bought the PCV, I would have went that way.
There just seems to be a lot of misinformation here.

I did not say the only way to adjust ignition timing was with the ECU; what I said was that the PCV could not do it. Now, if cost is an issue as it seems to be -- which is what I was getting at -- then do we want to buy a Power Commander and an ignition module add-on? Or does it make more "cents" to have the ECU reflashed? I don't care who does our reflash, I just know Guhls is very good. But with the Flash-Tune software and connectors we can do everything without having to resort to a Power Commander or ignition module add-on.

My earlier comments in the thread about Guhls looking at the mechanical specifications of the engine still apply. We can fool around with software all day long but unless we know the engineering and physics of what our engine can take in terms of developing power, we are just shooting in the dark. We have to know one critical thing (along with a lot of other things), and that is called "Brake Mean Effective Pressure" and the only way to know it is to calculate it base on the engine design features. The static and dynamic compression ratios, which are dependent on things like altitude above sea level (height MSL), cam timing, ram air effect, and piston/cylinder design, are all critical things that have to be examined before ignition timing, max RPM, and fueling can be calculated. Guhls knows all about this stuff.

Increasing the rev limiter increases the peak horsepower as the engine can spin higher. Changing the ignition timing and fuel mapping along with increasing the redline equals more power. Horsepower = RPM*torque, so adding another 500 rpm is going to get us more ponies.

Most of the dyno charts I can find for the FZ8 show peak HP of ~96 at 10,000 RPM, where the engine is making ~51 ft/lbs of torque. If we increase the RPM at which HP can be produced, we get more HP even if the torque falls off a bit, which it does.

For example, if we increase the RPM (headroom) we'll see over 100 HP at the rear wheel, if we can just maintain 48 ft/lbs of torque at 11K RPM. 11.5K RPM@46 ft/lbs will get 100.72 HP; 12K RPM@45 ft/lbs gets us 102.82 HP. So we are talking gains of 5-7 peak HP here, not 1-2. With that come big gains in torque.

The reflash can get us there with the changes in ignition timing and fuel mapping without a pipe or any other changes. Change only the air filter to a high-flow type and we can see that over 100 HP at the rear wheel from a stock bike is simple as pie.
 

NoNine4me

New member
I forgot to include this link to the HP calculator:

Rotating Horsepower Calculators - Horsepower, Torque, Speed

And here is one to an explanation of BMEP (brake mean effective pressure):

The acronym BMEP is the secret to magical increases in mechanical efficiency, that and compound expansion. Let me explain. Break Mean Effective Pressure, BMEP, and concern for its value steered the design of one of the most legendary reciprocating piston engines of all time, the Rolls Royce Merlin engine used in later versions of the British Supermarine Spitfire fighter and the North American P-51D and later... So what is it, BMEP, or Brake Mean Effective Pressure?

-Douglas Polson​

Fresh Paradigms: Higher BMEP means Greater Efficiency!

So this is definitely engineering at work and play here.

A good way to figure out who you want to do your flash; ask them about bmep. If the answer is "Huh?" then you might want to go somewhere else.
 
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frogger

New member
for me personally im not to fused about hp gains. I would just prefer to adjust the fueling and flies as I can tell they are affecting my low down smoothness.

if someone can find out if guhls would sell flashed ecu's rather then taking one in then I could buy one I guess

also here in Australia we run 98 octane if that makes a difference?
 

MotoZen

New member
for me personally im not to fused about hp gains. I would just prefer to adjust the fueling and flies as I can tell they are affecting my low down smoothness.

if someone can find out if guhls would sell flashed ecu's rather then taking one in then I could buy one I guess

also here in Australia we run 98 octane if that makes a difference?

I'll do my best to ask him when I'm there. I have a horrible memory, though, so I can't make promises.

Sent from my other favorite addiction (Galaxy S3) using Tapatalk.
 

NoNine4me

New member
for me personally im not to fused about hp gains. I would just prefer to adjust the fueling and flies as I can tell they are affecting my low down smoothness.

if someone can find out if guhls would sell flashed ecu's rather then taking one in then I could buy one I guess

also here in Australia we run 98 octane if that makes a difference?
Your octane numbers are different than in the US; I always run high octane so I didn't ask but it would be a good idea to find out if that's needed.
 

Banky2112

Just plain crazy...
Not true, ignition timing can be adjusted with the ignition module add on and engine braking can be lessened buy adding more fuel in parts of the map. The reason the engine brakes so hard is because the ECU really cuts back the fuel during de-acceleration if you add a bit of fuel in the de-accel part of the map the engine braking is lessened. So really the only thing the flash can do that the PCV can't is the rate the secondary flies open and adjusting/removing the rev limiter which is useless anyway. Yes its expensive but its for those of us who like to tinker ourselves and learn how to tune on our own. The PCV/JBP ect is the answer for some and the reflash is good for others depending on their situation. If I had know about flash tune before I bought the PCV, I would have went that way.

you CANT adjust timing or fuel inside of the factory restricted area of rev range with the factory ecu. I have first hand knowledge of this.

But I do like your opinion in self tuning and tinkering. This is very important, without this, we wouldn't have people like Marthy and doom and jumbo running around helping people.
 

frogger

New member
ive noticed some people saying there hp from stock is in the 90's ? here the fz8n stock has 106hp, well on paper anyway. is this correct or did I read wrong and would it be due to the higher octane.
 

NoNine4me

New member
ive noticed some people saying there hp from stock is in the 90's ? here the fz8n stock has 106hp, well on paper anyway. is this correct or did I read wrong and would it be due to the higher octane.
106 HP is what Yamaha lists for crankshaft horsepower for the engine on a bench test. What we are talking here is rear wheel HP measured with a dynamometer (dyno), that is, what the bike is actually putting to the ground. Dyno results vary but most seem to be at about 96 rwhp. So bumping that to 100-102 is a big gain. Also octane doesn't give you any more power, it allows you to use higher BMEP values in the engine so it will make more power. It's required in such engines to prevent detonation which can ruin your day. See Post #22 above...

http://www.779cc.org/forum/51087-post22.html

Also something to keep in mind is that in 1997 one of the hottest bikes was a Ducati 916 SP, which weighed 470 lbs and made 115 rwhp. This was a production racebike.

The FZ8 is lighter and can make HP numbers very close to that or more with mods. How things have changed...
 
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Banky2112

Just plain crazy...
Every Dyno is different, they are just measuring tools for your bike and it's changes, not someone else's.....

My bike had 92hp bone stock.....

I made it up to 103, then I started over with the tuning and we will see this summer.
 

9 Lives

New member
you CANT adjust timing or fuel inside of the factory restricted area of rev range with the factory ecu. I have first hand knowledge of this.

But I do like your opinion in self tuning and tinkering. This is very important, without this, we wouldn't have people like Marthy and doom and jumbo running around helping people.

What exactly is the "factory restricted area" is it the closed loop area of the map your referring too? The PCV is upstream of the ECM and modifies the pulse width of the injectors that the ECM is sending. I can't see how that can be "locked" the PCV has direct control of the pulse width since its after the ECU and therefore direct control of the fuel. When the bike goes into closed loop the ECU will start adjusting the fuel according to what the 02 sensor is telling it, this signal can also be manipulated by the 02 optimizer which comes with the PCV for our bike, or auto tune add on. The same principle applies to the ignition module. The tech department at dynojet confirmed that the fuel and timing can be changed in ALL areas of the map.

There is more that one way to skin a cat. I have no doubt that the Guhls flash is awesome and an excellent choice for most. Not for me because I love to tinker and learn how these things work for myself. Once I have found the explanation behind this mysterious "locked" area and why it can't be manipulated, I may just go the flash tune route.
 
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NoNine4me

New member
What exactly is the "factory restricted area" is it the closed loop area of the map your referring too?
Since I don't have first-hand knowledge, I can't comment on any locked areas, but as I have done the Guhls reflash, whatever is restricted is irrelevant because this engine is making excellent power all the way through, from 2K to 12K RPM with superb driveability.

So whatever range of adjustment is allowed is more than adequate.

I gotta set up a dyno run for my bike to see just what I've got.:cool:
 

Bam Bam

New member
What exactly is the "factory restricted area" is it the closed loop area of the map your referring too? The PCV is upstream of the ECM and modifies the pulse width of the injectors that the ECM is sending. I can't see how that can be "locked" the PCV has direct control of the pulse width since its after the ECU and therefore direct control of the fuel. When the bike goes into closed loop the ECU will start adjusting the fuel according to what the 02 sensor is telling it, this signal can also be manipulated by the 02 optimizer which comes with the PCV for our bike, or auto tune add on. The same principle applies to the ignition module. The tech department at dynojet confirmed that the fuel and timing can be changed in ALL areas of the map.

There is more that one way to skin a cat. I have no doubt that the Guhls flash is awesome and an excellent choice for most. Not for me because I love to tinker and learn how these things work for myself. Once I have found the explanation behind this mysterious "locked" area and why it can't be manipulated, I may just go the flash tune route.

We can make it simple you tune your bike with your pc and run against my bike with the guhl flash I am that confident. A power commander and ignition module cost more than the flash it self and the pc can not control sub throttle operation and removing the flies or modding them is not the answer it creates a flat spot in the power curve.
 

MotoZen

New member
for me personally im not to fused about hp gains. I would just prefer to adjust the fueling and flies as I can tell they are affecting my low down smoothness.

if someone can find out if guhls would sell flashed ecu's rather then taking one in then I could buy one I guess

also here in Australia we run 98 octane if that makes a difference?

I didn't ask about the difference in octane, but he did say that the RFID immobilizer might be a problem. He'd most likely have to cut into the ecu and disable it. Your best bet is to either call or email him if you're interested and he'll do whatever he can to help you out.

Sent from my other favorite addiction (Galaxy S3) using Tapatalk.
 

9 Lives

New member
We can make it simple you tune your bike with your pc and run against my bike with the guhl flash I am that confident. A power commander and ignition module cost more than the flash it self and the pc can not control sub throttle operation and removing the flies or modding them is not the answer it creates a flat spot in the power curve.

Sorry but your completely missing my intentions, I will start another tread as I have hijacked this one enough.
 

Banky2112

Just plain crazy...
What exactly is the "factory restricted area" is it the closed loop area of the map your referring too? The PCV is upstream of the ECM and modifies the pulse width of the injectors that the ECM is sending. I can't see how that can be "locked" the PCV has direct control of the pulse width since its after the ECU and therefore direct control of the fuel. When the bike goes into closed loop the ECU will start adjusting the fuel according to what the 02 sensor is telling it, this signal can also be manipulated by the 02 optimizer which comes with the PCV for our bike, or auto tune add on. The same principle applies to the ignition module. The tech department at dynojet confirmed that the fuel and timing can be changed in ALL areas of the map.

There is more that one way to skin a cat. I have no doubt that the Guhls flash is awesome and an excellent choice for most. Not for me because I love to tinker and learn how these things work for myself. Once I have found the explanation behind this mysterious "locked" area and why it can't be manipulated, I may just go the flash tune route.

They gave you awesome info! I didn't know any of the specifics, just that i literally stared at my Dyno guy as he said, "this is where I CAN tune...." And I was pissed. He said I should get it unlocked because from about 3800ish to almost 6500 was all basically emissions restricted for AFR, noise, and whatever else the EPA stabs at us.

I like your other thread btw, you explained yourself well.
 

nath180

New member
I didn't ask about the difference in octane, but he did say that the RFID immobilizer might be a problem. He'd most likely have to cut into the ecu and disable it. Your best bet is to either call or email him if you're interested and he'll do whatever he can to help you out.

Sent from my other favorite addiction (Galaxy S3) using Tapatalk.

I read a similar thing with the R1 whilst doing some flashtune research, that the immobiliser needs to be disabled for the tune to work.

Not sure of the exact disabling (whether its unplugging or in the ECU).
 

Woody146

Banned
Ok..as the one who,started this thread...I have gotten my reflash..I didn't go with either of these companies...I went with turbojoetuned out of l.a. California..a fellow fz8 rider,with a speed shop..he used the ft bench kit.

I am making 109hp at the rear with 62 ft lbs tq

Throttle is super smooth....constant power all the way up to the limiter

What is everyone making with guhls, flashtune, pcv, ecu unleashed?

What does everyone hit the limiter at? For me it is now 11.7..stock is 11.2
 

MotoZen

New member
Ok..as the one who,started this thread...I have gotten my reflash..I didn't go with either of these companies...I went with turbojoetuned out of l.a. California..a fellow fz8 rider,with a speed shop..he used the ft bench kit.

I am making 109hp at the rear with 62 ft lbs tq

Throttle is super smooth....constant power all the way up to the limiter

What is everyone making with guhls, flashtune, pcv, ecu unleashed?

What does everyone hit the limiter at? For me it is now 11.7..stock is 11.2

I haven't had mine tuned but it would be fairly irrelevant anyway. Different dynos are not always calibrated the same. Or so I'm told. To get true gains, you should do a dyno run, do mods, then dyno run again on the same dyno.
I've also not hit my limiter, come close though when merging on highways.

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MotoZen

New member
I read a similar thing with the R1 whilst doing some flashtune research, that the immobiliser needs to be disabled for the tune to work.

Not sure of the exact disabling (whether its unplugging or in the ECU).

Here in the states, the FZ8 doesn't have an immobilizer, thankfully. It's only an issue with overseas bikes.

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