Higher Speed Cornering - Body lean vs Bike Lean

[RS1]

I've been riding for a while but have always had this strange fear of going too fast into corners... When I say too fast, I don't mean recklessly fast, but I mean at a pace that at least leaves the average cager a good distance behind me. Maybe it's because I've always had 'upright' bikes.. First one was a Ninja 650R, now the FZ8.. I have ridden SV650S's, RC51's, so I do know what the low slung position feels like.. but to me I think the upright position makes it harder to want to 'lean your body' a bit more than the bike to get through a corner fast. Anyway, I just got back into riding after a 6 yr hiatus. Yesterday I couldn't figure out why I had so much trouble keeping up with the other bikes in front of me through the corners.. Until I discovered that I am leaning the bike a tad more than my body.... I know the difference between low speed turns (using your body to counter the bikes lean, and actually turning the wheel in the same direction of the turn) and turns at higher speeds (which require counter-steering and keeping the body in lean with the bike) but I just wasn't really doing it enough. So what I tried doing was, in a "fast" left turn, balls of feet on pegs (not heels), left butt cheek a tad bit off of the seat, head level, and shoulders just about in line with the handlebars.. Body was perhaps a bit to the left off of the bike center line.. All I can say is WOW. I didn't feel like "Holy $%^& I better slow down" because the bike is leaned over so far and I don't want to drag the pegs or exceed the tires max lean angle. I simply felt MUCH more relaxed, confident, and no where near like I was at the limits of the bike or myself for the turn. I played around with this a bit.. It's as if the more your body leans into the turn, the less the bike has to, and vice versa, but there is a 'sweet spot' to stay in connection with the controls of the bike. I've done some researching online after this ride, and dug further into it. This video really made sense of it all more than anything I've read [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aW01UaHyC4]Body Position 1.2 - YouTube[/ame]
I just wish they taught this stuff in the drivers manuals and/or MSF courses.. (Not sure if they do, haven't taken one yet, but ARC is coming up this May, and I will be in it).

So does this technique sound "correct" to those more experienced than I? It sure did feel better.. but I don't want to reinforce another bad habit if this is the wrong approach.

(And I may have exaggerated a bit about the speeds.. I don't ride recklessly on the street, or anywhere near the limits.. I just mean that I was going 'too slow' in the turns, to the point of SUVs being 10 feet behind me with a screaming soccer mom texting someone about how slow I am going in front of her...)
Thanks!

 

[DLSGAP]

Yes... Altering your body position to turn will allow you to carry more speed through the corner with less lean.

The arc will cover this yo an extent from what I remember... Track day schools teach it as well.

Twist of the wrist by Keith code and sport riding techniques by Nick ienastch are both very good reads and cover this as well

Sent from my S3 using Tapatalk

 

[SeñorJack]

also a twist of the wrist 2 is on youtube. super good video, if not a little cheesy.

 

[MikeC]

Good observation. In "the cornering bible" (available on Youtube), it talks about the different body positions in the turn, and if I'm not mistaken your initial position was the "crossed up" position. Being crossed up means that you lean the bike further over to keep you more upright, typically common found in MX racers. I'm guessing this has something to do with available traction on terrain other than asphalt.

I don't know if it's technically correct or not, but the way you described sounds like an example of good form. Whereby you leaning into the turn allows the tiresto stay more upright maximizing available traction.

 

[RS1]

Good observation. In "the cornering bible" (available on Youtube), it talks about the different body positions in the turn, and if I'm not mistaken your initial position was the "crossed up" position. Being crossed up means that you lean the bike further over to keep you more upright, typically common found in MX racers. I'm guessing this has something to do with available traction on terrain other than asphalt.

I don't know if it's technically correct or not, but the way you described sounds like an example of good form. Whereby you leaning into the turn allows the tiresto stay more upright maximizing available traction.

Half way through this DVD series on youtube.. Funny, the first "motor" bike (non minibike) I've ever ridden was a dirt bike... This video series is great tho! (Very cheesy, and 80's feeling, yes, but still very informative) Thanks for the suggestion..

 

[ssky0078]

The advanced rider course teaches you what you kind of just figured out.

I had a similar experience yesterday. Balls of the feet and I would get up a little bit off the seat and throw/push the bike to my outside leg/inner thigh (thank you stomp grip) then entering the corner get low and face my chest and head toward the inside of the curve. It may not have been great form but it was fun as hell and I was going faster. Oh yeah and I got my weight back and off the bars

 

[MikeC]

Half way through this DVD series on youtube.. Funny, the first "motor" bike (non minibike) I've ever ridden was a dirt bike... This video series is great tho! (Very cheesy, and 80's feeling, yes, but still very informative) Thanks for the suggestion..

My pleasure! Gotta share the knowledge for speed, but more importantly safety. This dvd series is actually a video adaptation of his book "Twist of the Wrist" which is pretty much the motorcycling holy book. I find myself watching it about once a month to review all the things I learn as I ride more and more. And yes, we always make fun of those two newbs. hahaha

You'll find that weighing the outside peg, will allow you to push the bike up against inner thigh of the outside leg. and that allows you to shift your body weight pointing it into the turn and not out of the turn. What this also lets you do is during transitions it allows you to use the tank and use your leg to move your body up, essentially passing the tank between your thighs when shifting to the other buttcheek. Give it a try!

 

[Glovik]

Get that knee to the ground if you wanna keep up! Lolol jkjk.

Here's a good tip for canyon carving and tearing up those streets. First off, always keep those balls of your feet on the pegs. Allllllways. Putting you heel on the peg is asking... No... Begging for trouble, by either your foot smacking your shifter/back brake when going over bumps and such, or your toes catching the ground when you turn if they point out. Badddd news.

So back to the tip for tearing it up. Put all your weight on your pegs, almost lifting your butt off the seat (Top poster already kind of mentioned doing that). Think about an SUV swerving around compaired to a sports car. The SUVS have all their weight up high and balance like shit when turning. Sports cars have all their weight down low to the ground and carve around no problem. The bike feels way more nimble. Almost like riding skiis as opposed to riding on a horse with your butt plopped down all high up.

Get loose!

I feel like its a lot harder to try to write out how to take corners, assuming everyone rides the same. It would be easier to watch you ride and give suggestions lol. See if a couple of the guys that were killing you in the corners would wanna go on an easier going ride some time with you leading, and they can see what's going on. I watched a lottttttt of YouTube videos. Tons. Anything about cornering on a motorcycle, I've probably seen. I'd watch how different people do it all night, wake up and hop on my bike and try stuff out. I'd more or less change little by little how I was already riding, rather than just completely forming to how one person said. Gotta make it your own art. Everyone has different bikes/arms/legs/butts/guts.

The number one cornering tip is confidence and preparation. Once you're confident with the bike and yourself and you know your corners, you can prepare yourself for what's coming up, and confidently slowly go faster and faster, leaning more and more. Halfway through a corner hanging off your bike is not the time for "I'm going too fast! I'm leaning too much!" to go through your mind.

 

[SeñorJack]

I support this ^ great description!

 

[Fazer401]

I wanted to share a great piece of advice that ha helped me corner better, 2 things really. 1st and foremost,and this is sooo easy and makes soooo much difference, is when you're in a corner look to the FARTHEST point you can see...do NOT look at your front tire lol. I know this is taught in MSF courses but we don't always do what we're taught. This alone will clean up your turns exponentially if you've been looking right in front of you. Lift your head and look to the far far end of the turn and go there! 2nd thing is more what you guys are talking about...(I think it was a vid on knee-dragging) I was a guy who'd shift my weight in a turn,but doing it all wrong. The tip that helped me stop was this- move your head/torso as if you were peeking around a doorjam,but keep your butt centered. Sure,get your weight onto the pegs,but don't move that cheek over into the turn. SO, look aaaall the way ahead to the far end of the turn and use your upper body in a "peek around a door" motion...my 2 cents. With that and $7 you can get a cup of coffee. Hope it helps!

 

[Bajaedition]

I think the best place I have seen it illustrated is in the book "A Twist of the Wrist". The author not only explains it he shows diagrams of what is happening to how you think the pressure on the tires is going and what really is happening.
Seems that the lower the weight the more speed you can corner with.

 

[RS1]

I wanted to share a great piece of advice that ha helped me corner better, 2 things really. 1st and foremost,and this is sooo easy and makes soooo much difference, is when you're in a corner look to the FARTHEST point you can see...do NOT look at your front tire lol. I know this is taught in MSF courses but we don't always do what we're taught. This alone will clean up your turns exponentially if you've been looking right in front of you. Lift your head and look to the far far end of the turn and go there! 2nd thing is more what you guys are talking about...(I think it was a vid on knee-dragging) I was a guy who'd shift my weight in a turn,but doing it all wrong. The tip that helped me stop was this- move your head/torso as if you were peeking around a doorjam,but keep your butt centered. Sure,get your weight onto the pegs,but don't move that cheek over into the turn. SO, look aaaall the way ahead to the far end of the turn and use your upper body in a "peek around a door" motion...my 2 cents. With that and $7 you can get a cup of coffee. Hope it helps!

This helped me alot especially with balance at slower speeds.. When I'd come up to stop signs I'd look low and feel totally off balance.. now I glance at where my feet will end up for a second, then look back up forward toward the horizon.. WAY more control and balance. This works for high and low speed situations. Thanks for all for the advice.. it's been working out great.

 

[mckshred]

Total Control by Lee Parks book

I think the best place I have seen it illustrated is in the book "A Twist of the Wrist". The author not only explains it he shows diagrams of what is happening to how you think the pressure on the tires is going and what really is happening.
Seems that the lower the weight the more speed you can corner with.

The Total Control Book By Lee Parks is an excellent reference and course. It has great information, do's and dont's about positioning and everything else with clear images. I took the class prior to my track days, it was well worth it.

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Control-Performance-Street-Techniques/dp/0760314039/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368830956&sr=8-1&keywords=total+control+by+lee+parks